I just finished reading Thomas Jefferson’s
autobiography. He wrote it when he was 77 and it reflects the latter part of
his life, in particular his time overseas and especially in France. A man who
was intimately involved in freedom movement in two countries and trying to
maintain friendly relationships with the country they fought to win the freedom
from. In his search for freedom he was influenced by European thinkers such as
John Locke, Adam Smith, and a score of other major thinkers of his day.
Jefferson is also viewed as the founder of liberal
thinking in this country; the Federalists of his day, now called Democrats.
Abraham Lincoln was also a liberal but in his day when Democrats/liberals were
called Republicans; we seem to have name recognition problems in this country.
And Jefferson was a strong advocate for the Republic or a Republican from that
standpoint. Nevertheless, a liberal is a liberal and the founding fathers were
liberals of varying nuisances.
The big debate of the day was where the
primary strength of government should lie, in the states on nationally.
Jefferson was for states dominance (The Presbyterian form of government) and
Hamilton was for a Centralized form of government (Congregational form of
government.) Jefferson won but folk might argue that it worked out that way. Of
course Burr, Jefferson’s VP shot Hamilton but Jefferson thought Burr was a turd
anyway.
Jefferson saw the need for a strong public
education for the survival of democracy. He wanted the country to stay agrarian
rather than industrial (guess that didn’t work out.) He wanted slavery outlawed
in the constitution but owned slaves himself and argued for their deportation
(for humanitarian reasons.) He was against a national bank (you know those that
appear too big to fail by another name.) He thought the president should have
one 7 year term (good idea, gets rid of all that campaigning and long enough to
get things done.) He also in his presidency used central power to block power.
Yet the fact remains Jefferson was an out
and out liberal believing in those liberal principles of “all men are created
equal,” and “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” are fundamental human
rights. It is the form of Liberalism that Obama espoused during the debates. …Everywhere we look, there is work to be done… we
will act — not only to create new jobs, but to lay a new foundation for growth.
We will build the roads and bridges, the electric grids and digital lines that
feed our commerce and bind us together…restore science to its rightful place,
…raise health care's quality and lower its cost….harness the sun and the winds
and the soil to fuel our cars and run our factories…. transform our schools and
colleges and universities…without a watchful eye, the market can spin out of
control…a nation cannot prosper long when it favors only the prosperous….we
reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals. Our founding
fathers, drafted a charter to assure the rule of law and the rights of man…
Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for
expedience's sake.”
Liberal ideas needed to lead the country as
Jefferson envisioned it.
"Yet the fact remains Jefferson was an out and out liberal believing in those liberal principles of “all men are created equal,” and “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”"
ReplyDeleteAnd just a week ago I read an article about how brutal and harsh Montecello was for Africans... at the express direction of Jefferson, as well. There was nothing humanitarian about this.
Also missing from the post is a mention of the large-scale genocide he ordered against numerous Native tribes.
My point being that it is really hard to compare and justify relatively ancient historic figures to modern standards. If you really insist on this, then what you have is the ultimate hypocrite: a man who mouthed the words of such good ideals while running his own home like one of the milder Nazi death camps and ordering ethnic cleansing/exterminations of people of the wrong race.
Anyway, I am a conservative exactly because I believe “all men are created equal,” and believe in “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”
I really would like for you to site a source once in a while, "the interpreter is part of the data. I am well aware of Jefferson's shortcomings and the shortcomings of many of the founding fathers but in spite of his times he did remarkable things and did in fact, want to put in the constitution the elimination of slavery. All folk in all times have hypocritical stances. Some lift up there foibles others lift up the strengths. Some folk build others seek to destroy and tear down. Conservatives today may well believe all men are created equal, but in the words Orwell, some are more equal than others.
DeleteKnowing Jefferson's limitations and place in history I still see him as an outstanding leader of keen insight from which our nation has benefited greatly. Thought he could never see the country in which we now live, his principles as seen in the constitution and the bill of right are brilliant and to be respected along with the man who was their primary writer.
In my opinion it is the liberals, like the country's founders that are the ones who get things done or at least try in the face of conservative opposition and conservatives are the nay sayers who look primary for private gain over the public good. We know what Obama and other liberals have done to work for the common good, what have the conservative done constructively? I'm sure you can find some if you work very hard.
I quote sources when necessary. I think the Monticello article was from Smithsonian. Want me to find it? And Jefferson's actions against Native Americans is very well known. I found it well documented and sourced on Wikipedia.
ReplyDeleteDo you doubt both of these, which is why you insist on a source?
"Knowing Jefferson's limitations and place in history I still see him as an outstanding leader of keen insight from which our nation has benefited greatly. "
I fully agree. But to equate him with modern liberals is as problematic as the libertarians I run into who also claim him as one of their own.
"conservatives are the nay sayers who look primary for private gain over the public good."
And we see liberals as those who look for government gain over the private good.
"like the country's founders that are the ones who get things done or at least try in the face of conservative opposition"
I see conservatives as standing between the greed of the ruling elites, and protecting the interests of the people which are threatened by it. Jefferson and others, in wisdom which is rather relevant today, specifically saw major problem with the nature of power and how the rulers amass more and more of it. This is why we have the Bill of Rights.
"We know what Obama and other liberals have done to work for the common good"
Only occasionally.
"what have the conservative done constructively?"
Fighting to keep the Bush middle-class tax cut, for one thing. Excellent example of the general good. Fighting against the "mandate" part of Obamacare, which is a massive tax mostly on middle-income families. Fighting for corporate responsibility and against bailouts, while the Liberals/Dems for the past several years are the ones strongly in favor of corporate welfare.
Racial equality? It is the Republicans and conservatives who fight to have governments, institutions, and companies treat every individual fairly regardless of race, and the Dems who strongly believe that hiring and admissions should punish and reward people based on skin color instead of ability. The conservatives/Republicans are definitely on the side of the public good on this, as when they pushed for civil rights against the wishes of Jefferson's party... and before that ended slavery.
And the last example is conservatives fighting for the right of the people to speak out on political issues, against those, mostly on the Left, who want to push us closer to the North Korean model where free speech is a privilege granted begrudgingly by those in government. The strongly fascist bent of many on the Left who want to amend and get rid of the Citizens United decision and once again make it a crime to speak truth to power is rather scary.
And I am glad you recognized the importance of the Bill of Rights, the very presence of which recognizes the fact that our rulers, though elected representatives, are ruling elites who seek their own power. Power which must be preserved by the people.
ReplyDeleteAnd here is the article on Jefferson.
ReplyDeleteI remembered this not out of "haha, look at the bad liberal!", but out of "This is an example of how evil the institution of slavery was, even in its supposedly mild form".
The life of the slaves at Monticello as presented reminds me of the prison camp in "Schindler's List" before the commandant really started to crack down.
So maybe this was not well known to you. Are you also seeking a source for the idea that Jefferson instituted (and wrote extensively in favor of) widescale ethnic cleansing and genocide against Native Americans?
Thanks for the source, very interesting if disturbing reading. Human beings are such strange creatures cable of great good and evil at the same time. It's amazing how God continues to care for us. One would hope we would have moved on further than we have in race relationships, including the need to atone for our collective sins of the past to those we have wronged; affirmative action for example.
DeleteMiddle class tax cuts under Bush seems a bit twisted as it aided in the redistribution of wealth to the wealthy; it was a tax cut period. National healthcare is the norm in many nations and has proved much more affordable therefore a help to business and individuals alike. Conservatives for civil rights seems like revisionist history. And the "ruling elites" you like to talk about appear to be based in conservative groups not liberal ones. Think I feel an article coming on about that one.
As for thanking me for recognizing the importance of the Bill of Rights, why wouldn't I? Enough for now.
"Middle class tax cuts under Bush seems a bit twisted as it aided in the redistribution of wealth to the wealthy"
DeleteHow can this be so, when all taxpayers had less taken from them under this? Nothing was distributed to the wealthy, or to the non-wealthy.
Conservatives/Republicans against slavery and for civil rights and for equal opportunity regardless of skin color is history how it has happened, and with a better record than the party of Jefferson, slavery, and Robert Byrd.
The fact that you refer to ruling elites in quotes underlies why we need to be reminded of the Bill of Rights, which places limits on them. Do you doubt they exist, that the rule, and that they meet the definition of elites? As for whether or not they are liberal or conservative, just check the party make up of the President, Congress, etc.
----------------
As for this: "the need to atone for our collective sins of the past to those we have wronged; affirmative action for example."
AA does not do this at all. It punishes people who did nothing wrong, and rewards those who were not victims of such sins. The fact that the daughters of Barack Obama, princesses of wealth and privilege both, get a special advantage under it compared to any white in poverty shows how worthless and destructive AA is.
Jefferson was probably more open-minded (at least in theory) than most of his contemporaries. Both slavery and the native americans impacted even pre-revolution thought:
ReplyDelete"The colonial interest in westward colonisation, as opposed to the British policy of maintaining peace by designating areas reserved to Native Americans west of the Appalachians following the end of the Seven Years' War, was one cause of the revolution. Most Native Americans who joined the struggle sided with the British, hoping to use the war to reduce settlement and expansion onto their land. The Revolutionary War was "the most extensive and destructive" Indian war in United States history."
The approach to these problems is exemplified by the US
Indian Removal Act of 1830 in contrast to the British Slavery Abolution Act of 1833. One man's manifest destiny was another man's extinction..thus with Jefferson...history
be not kind.
BB: To be generous to Jefferson, he did believe in ideals of quality and justice for some. But just not those in his own household, and not those of races this supposedly great scientific mind of the era, despite all the overwhelming evidence and his own experience, thought inferior and not worthy of any decent consideration.
DeleteI have been reading/studying a lot about the French Revolution for the past several years because it is so strange to me that this concept was actually the driving force that shaped the foundation of our country and of course, how differently the direction went in France as opposed to the United States. So I'll have to add Jefferson's autobiography to my reading list to learn more about his take on things during his time spent in France. However, I'm planning to read Ben Franklin's autobiography first.
ReplyDeleteI also disagree with: "Abraham Lincoln was also a liberal but in his day when Democrats/liberals were called Republicans"
ReplyDeleteBack in his day, the Democrats/liberals were called "Democrats", and had been a strong party for quite a while. His party, the Republicans, was rather new.
The 1860s Republicans were relatively new, bound by abolutionist beliefs. The Democrats of the time were split
ReplyDeletebetween north and south. Lincoln noted in his 1861 State Of
The Union,
"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." :
He grew the federal government, began the transcontinental
railroad..rather typical of a liberal mindset. The poor handling of reconstruction resulted in a conservative Democrat/liberal Republican scenario that lasted until the
role reversal (predicted and engineered by Nixon's Keven Phillips) that resulted from the 'Southern Strategy'...
the blue south became the red south, but the folks thinking
remained unchanged.
"He grew the federal government, began the transcontinental
ReplyDeleterailroad rather typical of a liberal mindset"
Which is rather typical of the conservative mindset, for better or worse. Reagan, Bushes, Nixon, etc grew the federal government as well, actually. and they all started new things.
I invited the liberal whose blog I have followed the longest of anyone's to comment here. He didn't choose to, but he sent me the following comment: "I think [Jefferson] was closer to a liberal than a libertarian, although he had aspects of each. I haven't held up any of the Founding Fathers as a great model to emulate, obviously."
ReplyDeleteAnd he remains anonymous. He comes from a standpoint with a strong emphasis on Native American-related issues.
Native American-related issues. Worked with a Nez Perce for
ReplyDelete30 years..one of those rare types that survived the interface between two disparate cultures. He would opine at times, 'my favorite war was the Civil War,..white guys killing white guys', and grin.
Haha. That description fits WW1 too, I think.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not he's a liberal, here's another interesting link on Jefferson someone just emailed to me:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.salon.com/2012/11/17/jon_meacham_im_not_letting_thomas_jefferson_off_the_hook/
The comment from Silenced says it all
ReplyDelete"The man sold his own mixed race family members for a profit like they were nothing more to him than cows or sheep. It's hard to get lower than that.
He seems to have had one of those minds like you see a lot in political geeks where he has a lot of nice theories about how the world should work, but he lacks the basic empathy and self-awareness to be a decent human being on the ground in real life."
I can't see why anyone would want to embrace that as part of their political "side".